Curse

upier · Apr 28, 2009, 09:10 AM // 09:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreamWind

That is not a question I have to answer. It is a question the supporters of microtransactions have to answer. Where does it end and why should it end? If you support this why should Anet ever stop?

If it goes too far - it will fail.
And that's something they need to figure out. It's not my job to tell them how to succeed. If they fail - I'll let them drown in the lake of shit they produced.
I think that's the best initiative for them to not take it too far.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreamWind

So what is best for you is to pay for updates? I'm glad we have different theories on "what is best for us". Best for Anet maybe, but certainly not us.

If you support this game, then getting everything for free is the best option.
IF YOU SUPPORT THIS GAME.

You are aware you can quit GW anytime right?

willie nelson · Apr 28, 2009, 09:39 AM // 09:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Imaginos

Yeah and according to anet they've sold 6 million copies of gw. Far more then enough to pay off any server cost, which by the way is what NCSoft does. They own the servers not Anet. So your point was?

That's 6 million over 4 games compared to 50 million over 5 games. Do the math.

By the way, where do you think the money for GW2 is coming from, thin air?

DreamWind · Apr 28, 2009, 10:18 AM // 10:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gli

If the choice is between "no new services offered" and "non-gameplay affecting services offered for money", I'll pick the latter.

If the choice is between being charged for content and updates, and being charged for only content, I'll pick the latter.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gli

I have a very simple definition of what is game changing and what is not: if I can't in any way tell if some random player spent cash for some service, it's not game changing.

Your definition is not very good, because it can apply to anything Anet sells. If somebody bought gold off of Anet I would not be able to tell if some random player spent cash for it. Hell I could even argue it would not be game changing for me if somebody else bought gold, but I won't go there.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gli

That's where I draw my line. As long as they don't cross it, I'm happily not spending money on whatever I don't want, but I won't begrudge ANet the money, or players their new options.

But if Anet is making money, why does it matter if they cross yours or anybody elses line?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gli

Also, projecting what is offered now onto the future, you shouldn't just take the money into consideration, you should also extrapolate the nature of the things they offer now. Because if you don't, you end up with slippery slope reasoning that can end up anywhere you chose.

There is no need for me to extrapolate the nature, because I disagree with what is being sold NOW. If they sold "game changing" stuff it would be bad, but just worse than it is now IMO. I wouldn't want them to sell more "non game changing" stuff either.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gli

What are you talking about? They don't make you pay for anything with this update.

They do if I want the entire update.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fril Estelin

So it's only logical that some part of such a big update won't apply to some people anyway. You don't have to be a fan to play the game (ironically, your comments don't weight as much as people actually playing the game).

So because it doesn't apply to me means I don't get it? That is like saying Blizzard made an update to Terran but since I play Protoss I don't get the update unless I pay for it. *waits for somebody to say my example doesn't work*

And I don't know why you keep going on about "people actually playing the game". It doesn't matter whether I play or not to Anet or anybody else. My comments don't weight as much as people buying the microtransactions, and that is the problem with them and reason they will only get worse from here. It doesn't matter how many people dislike the microtransactions if some people are buying them. It isn't like Anet is going to lose subscriptions or lose money if they sold gold in the store. If anything they would gain loads of money.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fril Estelin

No, you didn't get what I was saying: with this update, Anet makes the kind of successful moves that Fury, which somewhat spawned from GW's competitive PvP, failed to make. A lot of different kind of people can enjoy a free GW because others paid or have been paying to get a few non-game-affecting services.

Microtransactions would not have saved Fury. It had loads of other problems. But that aside, your comment that people can enjoy free GW because others paid for microtransactions is false IMO. People can enjoy GW for free because Anet said we could when we bought the game. I still disagree completely with the idea that people buying microtransactions helps me. It doesn't help me in the slightest.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fril Estelin

Bad comparison. Everyone has to use skills, not everyone wants name or appearance changes.

Your earlier comment was essentially "since in this update Anet gave everyone something for free, I am now more ok with microtransactions". I find that fascinating, because at first you thought it was overwhelming, but now you are used to it and ok because Anet gave us something for free. My response is this...just because Anet gives everybody something for free, does that make everything they do ok?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fril Estelin

Reference needed, or this statement is void.

I think you misunderstood these ideals and you're keeping to an "old and pure" vision of what GW1 should have been. This doesn't interest me as I'm playing the game I like, Anet makes the business decisions, not me.

Do I really need to dig them up? I thought it was common knowledge that both of the founders said they wouldn't do this various times. Their ideal of the game changed plain and simple. Please don't say "they stuck to their ideals".

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fril Estelin

You're disingenuous (either voluntarily or not) because you have absolutely no idea if Anet WANT money rather than NEED it. The more I read you, the more I see you stuck in the past, at the time before Factions came with a small Anet company without any long term plan. Time has changed.

Then perhaps Anet should come out and tell us what their plan is (and I'm not talking about GW2). Their communication on this has been terrible...they just sprung it on us. Is microtransactions their new long term plan?

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

If it goes too far - it will fail.
I think that's the best initiative for them to not take it too far.

You didn't answer the question. If people support microtransactions, WHY should they stop? Shouldn't they take it as far as possible without failing? They will simply sell more as long as people keep buying right?

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

You are aware you can quit GW anytime right?

Where does that get anybody? I don't get my money back and nobody feels a thing. =p

Quote:

Originally Posted by willie nelson

By the way, where do you think the money for GW2 is coming from, thin air?

GW1? You think maybe they would have thought of that when they announced the project?

bhavv · Apr 28, 2009, 10:25 AM // 10:25

Quote:

But where do we draw the line? Is the line only between what is game changing and what isn't? The problem I have is what is game changing is debatable. The other problem is what stops Anet from crossing the line if they will make money from it? And I just plain don't agree with the line. I'd rather not play ANY game with this amount and type of microtransactions. I haven't in the past and I won't in the future. I suppose I'm in the minority though, so ANet is brilliant once again.

We draw the line at common sense. It is beyond pointless arguing with someone like you when you have never played a game with microtransactions before.

I cannot understand your BS made up excuses and illogical reasons for hating microtransactions, because none of them are true in any of the F2P games I have tried.

You do not need to purchase anything to play and enjoy the game. You never will have to. Purchases are 100% optional and offer no strategic advantage at all.

I played GW yesterday, and I didnt have any need to purchase extra storage, yet who am I to say that other people cant do if they want to?

I myself would gladly purchase extra slots for my party at $9.99 each, but so many people have a moral outrage at me being able to enjoy playing solo with my own custom party, so I cant get what I would enjoy from the game.

At least all the people who want extra storage or a makeover can pay to get one.

willie nelson · Apr 28, 2009, 10:34 AM // 10:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreamWind

I remember back in 2005 people were asking for these very things, and now 4 years later they are being sold to us.

Here is where your argument fails, these things were asked for over four years ago, Anet said many times we'll never gonna get them. People, including you and me, still bought the game and subsequent campaigns knowing full well we'll never gonna get them. You knew it was not included in the game. You still bought it, and you got what you paid for, and more through many free content updates over the years(as in actual content, the things you actually play.)

Even though it was stated many times that it would not be in the game, community kept asking for it, and kept asking for it, and kept asking for it, until Anet caved and made a feature that was never planed to be in the game in the first place available to those who wish it for a small fee, while not diminishing the experience of other players who do not require such a feature.

You people are demanding something for free which you knew full well was not included, and that it never will be included in the price of the game when you bought it.

And to extrapolate from this that Anet is going to charge for every single small update for GW and GW2 is ludicrous at best, and hysterically paranoid at worst.

Get a grip on reality folks, companies want revenue, they always have and they always will. But I think Anet realizes its greatest strength and market appeal is in the buy once - play forever philosophy, and they aren't just going to ditch that for a big microtransaction type system that's present in every second MMO. They'd be pushing themselves out of the market leader and basically a monopolist position in one type of market to a already overcrowded market(not to mention the upcoming releases) of microtransaction MMOs. Nobody wants to give up market leader position...

refer · Apr 28, 2009, 10:36 AM // 10:36

I don't want Guild Wars to have a monthly subscription. If it did have one, I probably wouldn't be playing! Either that or make it like a one year cheap thing lol. I would honestly pay more the initial games if that helps them. Or maybe like they could have beta previews that they offer in the store where new features are being added or skills are being tweaked and people who pay a small fee get to use them before everybody else. That might be cool for the people who are impatient.

Fril Estelin · Apr 28, 2009, 10:43 AM // 10:43

dreamwind, I'm finished replying to you. Honestly, when you don't twist words (misinterpret me, storage being game-affecting), you simply ignore my points (and those of many others) and conveniently avoid having to back your statements with quotes from the founders.

Only to come back to the "me me me" point of view, which you claim is "common knowledge". I'd rather have someone who actually play and enjoy the game criticise it, they don't sound like trolls (no offense intended, you have strong views and it's sometimes tricky to go against the mainstream).

Gli · Apr 28, 2009, 10:55 AM // 10:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreamWind

If the choice is between being charged for content and updates, and being charged for only content, I'll pick the latter.

Then what's your big issue? You're not being charged for an update. They're offering very specific metagaming services. Different thing.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreamWind

Your definition is not very good, because it can apply to anything Anet sells. If somebody bought gold off of Anet I would not be able to tell if some random player spent cash for it. Hell I could even argue it would not be game changing for me if somebody else bought gold, but I won't go there.

I feel that they are already selling money, through the xunlai tournament house, but that's a different topic. And although I don't like what's happening there, it's a grey area for me that I'm willing to accept for now. (Though I'll be lauging my ass off if they ever change the rewards to zaishen coins.)

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreamWind

But if Anet is making money, why does it matter if they cross yours or anybody elses line?

Duh? If they cross my line, I'll stop playing their games. Whatever happens then will no longer be a concern of mine. Isn't that obvious? No, I guess not, we wouldn't be having this discussion if it was.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreamWind

There is no need for me to extrapolate the nature, because I disagree with what is being sold NOW. If they sold "game changing" stuff it would be bad, but just worse than it is now IMO. I wouldn't want them to sell more "non game changing" stuff either.

Seems your line has been crossed. Why are you still here? I don't mean to be dismissive, but you're obviously wasting your time here.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreamWind

They do if I want the entire update.

Everyone is getting the whole update. The option to pay for the new services is there for everyone. It's no different than buying character slots: pay money and have a meta-aspect of your game altered.

upier · Apr 28, 2009, 10:59 AM // 10:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreamWind

You didn't answer the question. If people support microtransactions, WHY should they stop? Shouldn't they take it as far as possible without failing? They will simply sell more as long as people keep buying right?

Bolded the winning part.
Your whole argument is based on the presumption that this business model isn't good for GW or it isn't something that people want.

Do I want MTs?
No. I want everything for free. Hell, I'd torrent GW without a second thought.
But, despite the addition of MTs - I see that I am not losing out on anything. The additions are designed very nicely so that not having them does not reduce my enjoyment of the game.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreamWind

Where does that get anybody? I don't get my money back and nobody feels a thing. =p

Don't support future additions to the GW franchise. Or any product that A.Net puts out. Or NCSoft even.
And if that doesn't do a thing, then face it - you just don't matter.

CyberNigma · Apr 28, 2009, 12:27 PM // 12:27

I would support RMT/Micro Transactions so long as everything can be had by those with time by grinding (according to the amount of time equal to the money involved - some metric would have to be established). This puts people on an equal footing (kids/students have always had the advantage on western MMOs which value Time>skill>money whereas professionals have always had the advantage on eastern MMOs which value money>skill>time).

I still like the old school BBS games that limited you by how many turns or how much time per day you could play. This put everyone on an equal footing :-)

Still Number One · Apr 28, 2009, 12:29 PM // 12:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreamWind

A lot of reasons, but I'll give you one. Are we always going to have to purchase the most wanted features for the rest of the franchise? You are ok with this? I remember back in 2005 people were asking for these very things, and now 4 years later they are being sold to us. Slap in the face IMO. I understand JR's position that he is ok with them selling optional services, but I just disagree with it. I would much rather them sell new content and give us the optional services that we have been asking for.

That isn't a reason on why micro transactions for non content are bad at all. You are just saying your opinion about how you are upset something you want for free has a price tag on it. And speculating on future endeavors that you have no possible way of knowing will occur or not are not good reasons why either. And am I ok if anet keeps adding things to the store for us to buy? As long as it doesn't give any player a competitive advantage over me, then yes, I am ok with it. There is absolutely nothing wrong with a company putting an object to sale that I don't need to have, regardless of whether or not I want it. If I want it badly enough, I will pay for it. If I don't, I won't pay for it and play the game as is.

Try to come up with a GOOD reason as to why micro transactions for non content are bad and have hurt this game. Or just admit the fact that you are butthurt that anet is charging for a product you feel you deserve when in fact you don't. Everything we receive in this game outside of what we paid for in the box set is a privilege. Yes, everyone would like to have this stuff for free. Most of us just aren't childish and decide we want to whine and complain that we didn't get it that way.

DreamWind · Apr 28, 2009, 12:32 PM // 12:32

Arg, this is getting a bit hard when I have like 6 people quote warring me.

Quote:

Originally Posted by bhavv

We draw the line at common sense.

Yesterdays common sense said that what is being sold today is nuts. Seriously its amazing what goes on on these forums. Before this new update was announced there were various threads were I made the declaration that Anet could easily sell all of these things (I made the claim before we ever knew they existed), and the majority thought I was crazy. CRAZY! Many even said that would be borderline crossing the line. Now the majority thinks I am crazy that I disagree with them actually appearing. Amazing turn of events.

I question whether there is a line at all. Is it common sense that they should sell hero slots? What about auction house use? What about gold? Common sense tells us this is ridiculous...or does it? Perhaps common sense will move the line again?

Quote:

Originally Posted by willie nelson

Here is where your argument fails, these things were asked for over four years ago, Anet said many times we'll never gonna get them. People, including you and me, still bought the game and subsequent campaigns knowing full well we'll never gonna get them.

I bought the game under the assumption (essentially the lie) that we were never going to get them because Anet said it was nearly impossible or at least extremely hard. I didn't buy the game under the assumption that it actually was very possible and that Anet was only giving it to people willing to buy it. Big difference.

Quote:

Originally Posted by willie nelson

Anet caved and made a feature that was never planed to be in the game in the first place available to those who wish it for a small fee, while not diminishing the experience of other players who do not require such a feature.

I'd argue it can diminish the experience. The days of being able to get anything in the game from your skill alone are over. Now we know that there are things in the game that we can not have unless we put real money into it. I suppose if you are used to that type of game, more power to you, but that isn't the game I wanted to play.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fril Estelin

dreamwind, I'm finished replying to you. Honestly, when you don't twist words (misinterpret me, storage being game-affecting), you simply ignore my points (and those of many others) and conveniently avoid having to back your statements with quotes from the founders.

I'm sorry you feel that way. I was simply responding to your points, but maybe I missed something. It gets tough when I have to respond to 10 million people. Nevertheless, if this is only about those quotes from the founders, I will dig them up if I must. I just figured you and everybody else knew that already. Anet changed their stance and their game direction. I figured it was indeed common knowledge by now.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gli

Then what's your big issue? You're not being charged for an update. Everyone is getting the whole update. The option to pay for the new services is there for everyone.

I am being charged if I want the FULL update. The services are part of the update. I got the partial update for free. Meh...this is just a war of words. I see what you are trying to say and this is going nowhere.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gli

I feel that they are already selling money, through the xunlai tournament house, but that's a different topic. And although I don't like what's happening there, it's a grey area for me that I'm willing to accept for now.

Well...at least we have some common ground. I disagree with XTH, and I would disagree if they sold gold. The problem is...a lot of people would be happy if Anet sold gold. In fact I talked to several of my friends who play GW actively and 4 out of 5 of them said they would be ok with Anet selling gold. Their reasonings ranged from "better Anet than chinese" to "that would be sweet I could get FoW" to "they are already doing it with XTH".

What is my point? Well it goes right back to where the hell does that line stop? Of course everytime I ask that question people don't answer it and call me an idiot (either that or they say cross the bridge when we get there which also conviently ignores the question), but it is a legit point. With this update and its apparent widespread support, I personally feel as if the floodgates have opened. What is good for GW? (I'd like upier to answer that Q).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gli

Seems your line has been crossed. Why are you still here? I don't mean to be dismissive, but you're obviously wasting your time here.

Yea...you're probably right man. I should retire from this forum probably...but every once in a while I check in to GW and it sometimes amazes me what has become of it and I sometimes want a place to rant.

EDIT:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Still Number One

You are just saying your opinion about how you are upset something you want for free has a price tag on it.

Uh no...I don't walk up to a Porshe and get upset that it has a price tag on it and cry that it should be free. There is a difference that you should be able to see by now or you haven't been reading my posts.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Still Number One

And am I ok if anet keeps adding things to the store for us to buy? As long as it doesn't give any player a competitive advantage over me, then yes, I am ok with it. There is absolutely nothing wrong with a company putting an object to sale that I don't need to have, regardless of whether or not I want it.

Your argument shoots itself in the foot. You say Anet can sell anything that doesn't give a player a competitive advantage over you. You then say there is nothing wrong with a company putting an object to sale that you don't need to have. See a problem? Who says you need to have competitive advantages? Nobody. Not to mention what kind of competitive advantages? If somebody buys 10 million gold off of Anet does that give them a competitive advantage over me? I'd argue no because to me competing in this game has never been about money...

Still Number One · Apr 28, 2009, 01:04 PM // 13:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreamWind

Uh no...I don't walk up to a Porshe and get upset that it has a price tag on it and cry that it should be free. There is a difference that you should be able to see by now or you haven't been reading my posts.

Your argument shoots itself in the foot. You say Anet can sell anything that doesn't give a player a competitive advantage over you. You then say there is nothing wrong with a company putting an object to sale that you don't need to have. See a problem? Who says you need to have competitive advantages? Nobody. Not to mention what kind of competitive advantages? If somebody buys 10 million gold off of Anet does that give them a competitive advantage over me? I'd argue no because to me competing in this game has never been about money...

I have been reading your posts. They are all you portraying your opinion that this stuff should be free as fact.

My argument does not shoot itself in the foot. I play GvG. If anet gives someone a competitive advantage over me through purchasing something in their store, then I have to buy it if I want to stay competitive. I will need it if I want any chance of winning. And you are 100% right this game isn't about money. Never has been, and never will be.

Don't get me wrong, I don't think you're stupid and I don't disagree with you 100%. I'd just like to see you come up with a solid argument on why this is bad, because frankly, I'd like to see one. That way we can get everything for free and everyone will be happy.

Professor K · Apr 28, 2009, 01:12 PM // 13:12

DreamWind has lost this debate pages ago. But its amusing that he still sticks to his guns. Ah well, let the DreamWind vs everyone else in the thread, continue!

DreamWind · Apr 28, 2009, 01:19 PM // 13:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Still Number One

My argument does not shoot itself in the foot. I play GvG. If anet gives someone a competitive advantage over me through purchasing something in their store, then I have to buy it if I want to stay competitive. I will need it if I want any chance of winning. And you are 100% right this game isn't about money. Never has been, and never will be.

Fair enough. So for you Anet can sell anything as long as there are no competitive advantages in GvG? I'd actually like to hear more people saying what their line actually is, instead of saying I'm an idiot for even bringing it up.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Still Number One

I'd just like to see you come up with a solid argument on why this is bad, because frankly, I'd like to see one.

Well...if you haven't got one from my posts then maybe there isn't one. Perhaps it is something I just don't like. My line has been crossed.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Professor K

DreamWind has lost this debate pages ago.

Get back to us when you add something.

willie nelson · Apr 28, 2009, 01:48 PM // 13:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreamWind

The days of being able to get anything in the game from your skill alone are over. Now we know that there are things in the game that we can not have unless we put real money into it.

???

And which exactly would those hypothetical things be?

MithranArkanere · Apr 28, 2009, 01:49 PM // 13:49

Being it 'for show' and not of real use is not an excuse to cross a line they have always said they will never cross.

I don't have very good memory, but I recall a thread about the addition of NCoins, and some people fearing GW using them, and I think a CM passed by the thread to note that Anet would never use something like that...
...and here you are, something like that.

If you always say you are not changing your business model, that you will stick to your current one, and then, out of the blue, forget about all you have said and go with something else, you can't expect anyone believing in whatever you say from then on.

Unless they add 'pay once' alternatives to those micropaid features, I won't believe GW2 will go with 'pay once' too.

Apollo Smile · Apr 28, 2009, 01:51 PM // 13:51

I'd like to hear a good reason against these optional microtransactions. "I'm too cheap to buy them" and "I don't want to pay for anything" do not count. I don't think you or anyone else is an idiot for thinking otherwise, DreamWind. I just expect an actual, practical answer. Ive stated in this thread already why I have no problems with these microtransactions, but I will state them again for convenience.

1. Nothing added so far gives anyone an advantage in either PVP or PVE.
2. I have no problem with paying for features that cost the company extra resources. I won't condemn ArenaNet for charging for these optional features. It would be hypocritical, considering I play WoW and its also charges for character re-customization.
3. I understand that ArenaNet is a company. A business is a business.
4. Even people who don't wish to purchase these extra features benefit from the extra money ArenaNet gets. Guild Wars 2 benefits from this as well. Bigger budget = bigger game. More money for advertisement and promotion = bigger playerbase and community.

MithranArkanere · Apr 28, 2009, 02:15 PM // 14:15

It doesn't matter if something gives advantage or not.
Prestige armors, miniatures, tonics, different weapon skins, CE dances...
There are a lot of things that are for show and give no advantage, that were released without microtransactions.

Apollo Smile · Apr 28, 2009, 02:22 PM // 14:22

You listed off a bunch of items. Items do not equal features. Account changes and extra server space are vastly different than a random mini.